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Gun Control Decision Highly Confusing to a Layman

Written by: myles s on Jul 3, 2008 12:08 PM EDT

Gun control decision

is highly confusing to a layman

Well, constitutional law experts having been vetting the recent Supreme Court ruling striking down D.C.’s hand gun ban, with varying opinions. But to a layman, the ruling makes no sense whatsoever, and the majority opinion written by Justice Scalia is even more non-sensical and highly confusing.

Further, the opinion written by Scalia (who claims to be an “originalist" strictly interpreting the Constitution) again shows him, and others on the majority, to be quite the opposite and he seems to have based his opinion on politics, pure and simple.

The Second Amendment right to bear arms is quite specific and clear. It states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

So why am I confused? Or is it Scalia who is confused?  Well, in his opinion he states:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever and for whatever purpose”.  Well Mr. Strict Constructionist, that is not what the Amendment says at all!

To begin with, it states “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms”. It does not define what kind of “Arms” (in caps). It places no qualifiers or restrictions on the type of arms. There is no “interpretation” or restrictions contained in this clause – you have just made a new law, which I have always believed is the province of the Congress.

Further, the Amendment refers the right to keep Arms as an adjunct to being necessary to a “well regulated Militia”.  Although the court did expand that need to include defense of ones home, the original need was maintaining a “militia”. A “militia” is an Army. And Army needs...uses...acquires...maintains a variety of weapons to perform its mission.  Thus, a strict interpretation of the Amendment would allow “the people” to own and keep such weapons as machine guns, assault weapons, bazookas, even cannons if they are to fulfill the need to have a well regulated Militia. As an aside, using the court’s expanded need to own handguns to “defend ones home” such powerful weapons might prove useful (especially against a handgun).

Many pro gun advocates – even the NRA – have backed away from this possibility.  Why? Because they know the American people would be adverse to such a situation. They know that having such weapons in the hands of ordinary people is absurd. Precisely! Absurd! But having said that, what is the difference of people being killed by a handgun or a machine gun? Are you any less “dead”?  If the court, and Scalia, want to prevent ownership of machine guns because they are dangerous to the security of a community then they have to recognize that handguns are no less dangerous, and indeed, almost certainly more dangerous because of their price, availability, concealment and criminal history.  The entire logic of the court’s decision makes no sense – at least not to a layman.

Probably not to a jurist either. While Saclia’s majority opinion has been widely published, Justice Breyer’s minority opinion reflects the same inconsistency of the decision that I, as a layman, see. The Breyer dissent notes:

"According to the majority’s reasoning, if Congress and the States lift restrictions on the possession and use of machineguns, and people buy machineguns to protect their homes, the Court will have to reverse course and find that the Second Amendment does, in fact, protect the individual self-defense-related right to possess a machinegun."

So what is to be done now that this decision is rendered? Well, as a strong gun control advocate, my best suggestion would be to introduce in Congress a bill which would give the right of individuals to own “any kind of weapon a person desires to own in accordance with the right conveyed in the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States”.  Let’s see how pro-gun advocates would vote on such a bill.  They are the ones consistently defending those rights given in the Second Amendment, there should be no hypocrisy here.  If they equivocate, then it acknowledges that the Amendment must be interpreted in the context of a civilized society living in the 21st Century; not the needs of a “well regulated militia” as were needed in 1776.  Then let (as Breyer suggests) the court render a decision on that new law.  And should Scalia and the majority again decide on a politically-based decision which restores and expands the wild wild West to our cities’ streets – then we all better hope “In God We Trust”.

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Location: minnetonka, MN 55345

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Hs-2008_tinythumb

- the layman's dilemna

By Sandra Verthein on Jul 3, 2008 6:19 PM EDT

I saw an interesting comment about this that basically said that the idea that the way one interprets the constitution is by reading the words of the portion in question and deciding what it means is ludicrous -- that you also have to take into account all of the writings since and case law and everything else that has come up that tells us how this law is to be applied. Because, as a layman, when I read the 2nd amendment it sounds to me like it says that anyone can own any weapon they like. However I also know a little bit about the history at the time it was written and what it was *probably* referring to, as well as the way it has been interpreted in practice, and both of those things tell me that it does *not* mean that anyone can own any weapon they want!

There are times that I wish I had a law degree so I could better understand the context of all of this -- and that I had more time to read history! I would love to know more about the history of the 2nd amendment.

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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- The Bill of Rights is pretty plain language and is always worth a read.

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:56 PM EDT

and because the FISA bill violates it will be struck down at some future date if we still live in freedom, but in the meantime it would be better to stop this one and start over

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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- Federalist Paper 24 is an interesting discussion of militia versus standing army

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 7:16 PM EDT

The Second Amendment provides for a means to keep the country from being run by a military juanta.

Homeland Security legislation has placed command and control in the hands of the Executive and the response to Katrina was delayed as Gov. Blanco demanded sending in the Louisiana National Guard immediately under state command, and Bushco resisted so that the response would be under Federal Command

gun rights are a means to keep the Federal government from claiming only they can keep a person safe

since the Court decision was made about a law under Federal jurisdiction in Washington DC the real underlying issue hasn't been addressed yet

+0 Rating
T157689

- howard dean...

By mprov on Jul 3, 2008 6:22 PM EDT

has been 1st here for 5 years...

----------------------------------------

this arguement makes no sense to me.  an amendent to the constitution, in plain language, beyond "interpretation" is a better solution.

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511t233735

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By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:34 PM EDT

Good to have the perspective of the Blog's reigning (or is it raining?) expert on the Constitution.

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T157689

- you dissing me john???

By mprov on Jul 3, 2008 6:51 PM EDT

look out, phil's got guns and knows how to use them.  i've never owned a gun.  not even a BB gun.  not even a bow and arrow, or a sling shot.  i've got some knives though.

i don't buy the self-defense stuff though.  seems like an arms race to me.  i get one, you get a bigger on, the cops get a really big one, i get another faster one, and on and on...

 

best way to solve a problem is to get rid of it....

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511t233735

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By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:59 PM EDT

I briefly owned a coupla guns when I lived in rural Arizona-- a .38 revolver and a Remington sawed-off 12 guage (Police version).

Some kids broke in and stole the .38. I've forgoten what happened to the Remington, but we sure dumped it.

+0 Rating
T157689

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By mprov on Jul 3, 2008 7:05 PM EDT

i've probably shot guns less than 10 times in my life:  some when i was a kid shooting friend's guns, at least 3 times while in the navy...i did get to fire a harpoon missle once though, and have targeted several "war shot" torpedos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpoon_missile

 

+0 Rating
Heyhey_tinythumb

- kinda makes you understand the phrase:

By puddle on Jul 3, 2008 7:32 PM EDT

GOING POSTAL. . . .

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511t233735

- The American Love-affair with firearms

By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:23 PM EDT

Nowhere else in the world, are ordinary folk allowed to own and carry (and conceal) firearms of all descriptions.

The concept is so nutty, it adds yet another reason for America to be the world's laughing stock.

It perhaps helps to explain why we spend more on "defense" than all aother countries in the world combined.

With Obama in the hunt, we can't even talk about the "White Man's " burden. It's probably better articulated as the "Energy Empire's Burden".

The Supreme Court majority's wacky and perverted view of the Second Amendment is so at odds with 21st century thinking, that "American Exceptionalism" takes on a new and terrifying meaning.

 

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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- I'm bitter and continue to cling to my guns.

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:28 PM EDT
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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:31 PM EDT

and since this is an area of vunerability for Obama,main posts like this are what make no sense

Obama has to carry the Mtn. West to be assured of victory.

 

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511t233735

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By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:55 PM EDT

Obama---Kerry

July Poll numbers identical

Remember "I was for it before I was against it"

+0 Rating
Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:34 PM EDT

is pretty plain language, good luck with your attempt to amend the Constitution

+0 Rating
T157689

- don't know...

By mprov on Jul 3, 2008 7:06 PM EDT

...seems the militia part was the point?  like in switzerland?

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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

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By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:43 PM EDT

The Constitution is a document which restricts the actions of the State. This decision re-enforced individual rights, so as not to be unduly restricted by the tyranny of majority.

long overdue

and since the Eight has been re-affirmed in the Habeus case, I'm looking forward to judicial review of the Fourth if the Congress tramples on that right with a bad FISA bill.

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Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- Since this main post is basically a discussion of the Bill of Rights I'll post Jim Dean's e-mail again.

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 6:46 PM EDT
Join Senator Feingold and stand up to President Bush: Sign our Senate Petition to Stop Telecom Immunity
Phil -

Senator Feingold needs our help to stop the FISA "compromise" bill. Russ sent me this message to pass on to you. Please read it and then sign our Senate Petition to Stop Telecom Immunity. We will deliver the petitions to every Senator on Tuesday morning, right before the expected vote.

Let's make sure they get our message loud and clear.
CLICK HERE TO SIGN THE PETITION NOW

Senator Feingold's message directly to you:

Dear Friend,

In recent days, people across the country have voiced the opinion that the so-called "compromise" FISA bill working its way through the Senate must be stopped.

As you already know, I am working hard to strip retroactive immunity for the telecommunications companies that allegedly cooperated with the President's illegal warrantless wiretapping program from the bill.

But that is not the only problem. This FISA legislation gives enormous powers to the government: including the ability to read emails and text messages and listen to phone conversations of anyone communicating with their family members, friends, associates, reporters, ANYBODY who may be overseas -- all with zero court review.  Nobody should be supporting this legislation.

We can defend our country from terrorists while at the same time protecting the rights and freedoms outlined in the Constitution.  It's time for our elected officials to stand up for the values on which our country was founded.

We should celebrate our Constitution this Fourth of July -- and do everything we can to prevent it from being torn up when the Senate returns to Washington next week.

Progressives everywhere have already had a tremendous impact -- with phone calls, emails, and letters pouring into offices by the hundreds (in some cases thousands), but the pressure on my colleagues to give in to this so-called "compromise" and President Bush is strong.

I'm going to continue to do everything I can to stand up for the rights and freedoms we all share.  Thanks again for doing your part.

Sincerely,

Russ Feingold
Honorary Chair
Progressive Patriots Fund

Russ also shot a video last Friday night to thank you and all progressives fighting against this bill. You can watch it while signing our Senate Petition to Stop Telecom Immunity.

CLICK HERE TO STAND UP FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND STOP TELECOM IMMUNITY

Working together, we will stop this bill.

- Jim

Jim Dean, Chair
Democracy for America
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511t233735

- well done phil

By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:53 PM EDT
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511t233735

- Another exciting thread

By Huron John on Jul 3, 2008 6:52 PM EDT

On topic: second amendment, Supreme court, Scalia sodomizes sheep,

+0 Rating
Sharon_christmas_angel_119_tinythumb

- another Bill of Rights post is this from Charles Chamberlain

By Phil Specht on Jul 3, 2008 7:01 PM EDT
Never underestimate the effect of a people-powered campaign and face to face contact. Tell your Senator to stop telecom immunity with an in-person visit to their Senate office.
Phil -

We did it - but our work isn't done.

Over the last two weeks, we've made 13,211 reported phone calls demanding that our elected leaders stand up to President Bush and stop any bill containing retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies who spied on Americans.

No one thought we could stop this bill. The so-called "compromise" bill was on a fast track to pass quickly through the Senate so the President could sign it before July 4th. Now, because you took action, that's not going to happen.

The vote on this bill has been delayed until after the holiday recess and Senator Russ Feingold has vowed that, if necessary, he will filibuster it. But Senator Feingold still can't win this fight alone. He'll need 41 Senators to support his filibuster.

Every Senator, Democrats AND Republicans, needs to hear from their constituents before the next vote -- but not over the phone.

This time we need to get our message across in person.

Visit your senators' district office. Your visit doesn't have to be long. You don't need to schedule it. And you don't have to meet with the Senator directly. We've created an easy handout you can just drop off. The fact you took the time to deliver your message in person will ensure your message has a tremendous impact.

CLICK HERE TO GET YOUR HANDOUT AND YOUR SENATOR'S OFFICE LOCATIONS NOW.

Senators are coming home for the July 4th holiday. Nothing will get our message across better then face to face action.

They need to know this issue is so important to Americans that real people in their own backyard are taking time out of their busy day to demand they stand up to President Bush and AT&T.

Your actions will make more Democrats stand up to President Bush. It will support Senators like Russ Feingold and Chris Dodd. And it will scare Republicans.

CLICK HERE TO SIGN UP FOR A DELIVERY

Never underestimate the effect of a people-powered campaign and face to face contact. Together, we will stop telecom immunity.

Thank you for everything you do,

-Charles

Charles Chamberlain, Political Director
Democracy for America

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