Howard Dean and real democracy in America are numero uno.

Thanks for the thread, Jo!

Still sorry we could not connect this past October. I had such a great time in Vermont.

Hi Denise!  Me too - you're always welcome here when you're in the area - hope you are again soon!

Sometimes I think we forget, because we are so involved with politics, that the majority of the country, unfortunately, is not. We are very passionate, which is a good thing! And if we all thought the same, how boring it would be.

In my extensive travels I get to talk to all sorts of people, and much of it is about their local politics, with some national stuff thrown in just to take the temperature. The constant feedback I would get is that America needs new blood for leadership (along with an occastional regretted Bush vote). They want better jobs and a Congress that will at least start to change our healthcare industry. One president alone cannot do that - and it's going to take time to get the nasties out of Congress - but we are making progress! That is what progressives do. It's not going to happen this presidential cycle alone so let's ease up on putting the weight of the world on one person's shoulders.

Most of today's voters, either longtime or newbies, don't even know what a PAC or a lobbyist is (again, regrettable). But they are not always dirty words. My esteemed colleague in our DC office is an attorney and a lobbyist - and she's a Democrat. She actually makes sure that laws favor PEOPLE and not our company - imagine that! It's about a corporation's integrity and those are as different as each of us are different. Good and bad, all around.

I highly resent the inference by some here that if I'm supporting a candidate that they do not feel is "progressive enough" that I'm a sell out. I'm intelligent enough to know and understand that it's ridiculous to think that a human being is a static being. When facts and situations change, people can change, too. That's how life works.

It's up to us, together, to work with what we have, and if we don't like what we have, work to educate others and try to change it. I'm still committed to that. Thanks, Howard, for forging the path of the journey.

beautifully said, Denise! 

Well hi there Jo and Denise...what a nice *little* thread you have here.

Thanks Jo - all I know is, we need to do alot of work to do and I'm fired up, ready to go! Have been since the 2004 keynote speech at the Dem Convention, but I never thought I'd see the day where Barack would get this far. Still heartbroken about Dean (and Gore) but I can move on.

Hi Reed!!

How are you? Another person I missed while in the lovely Green Mountain state.

When I drove from Burlington to Boston that day it was just so enjoyable! Those colors in the trees - breathtaking! And the apple cider stand I found offroad was just what I needed to get me to Bean Town.

hi Reed - are you getting a bit of break with this change in the weather?

fired up, ready to go... not a bad way to feel!!!

Doing fine Denise...also sorry I missed you while you were here. We get together again I'm sure.

While Barack is certainly not my first choice, he's done something that has been needed desperately for a long time...he's energized the youth to care and get involved.

Yes Reed and that is so important! We don't only need new leadership (in all branches) blood but new activist blood as well. I have faith in the young people of today's diverse America and I welcome them into the fold.

Hi Jo...The break from the cold and snow is a nice change...got my porch full of wood so I'm ready for the next blast. Next Monday I've been invited to a small meeting where Peter Galbreith will speak about Iraq and our disastrous foreign policy and then discuss Vermont politics, especially the Governor's race. I'm hoping to get all the gubernatorial candidates in a forum together.

"Nationwide insurance industry fraud" and a vote for John Edwards by nyceve

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1...

Thank you Jo*in*Vermont.

This thread has now been promoted as the new front thread.

Howard Dean's travels.  Amazing.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1739

528, 468 miles, not counting foreign trips.

I know that -- that Linda*in*SFNM, Huron John and audrey.nc -- are good people.  IMO they're just a bit misguided (call it the ABB bug has bitten them and they can't seem to find anything to get rid of the sting).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm, rd............I take exception to that one and profess that you and what appears to be many here on this blog and apparant;ey around the country have been "suckered"...................its that plain and simple..............

Ive researched Obama quite a bit and have read several opinions by some very notable peole in politics that the only logical choice for the Democrats would be.................Edwards. Now,as  you are aware I dont care for any of these semi shllow A+ politcians so I wil deduce you are smart enough to not include me in either polictical camp thank you.................

Now, If I and others are wrong so be it................I think a very dangerous random element is that Democrats and most non republicans are so desperate for a victory in 2008 they wil latch onto the best sounding and best appearing candidate................Obama  IMO is playong this like a pro and well, thats American politcs.........that famous ass backwards institution that btrought us the nightmare of Ronald Reagan, george Bush 1 and 2....................maybe and probably likley Mccain down the road...................

Obama does have a flair that is being utoiled at the correct time................I, think his nomination would be just another mistake in the Democratic tradition of fuck ups in the nomination proces and candidates...................now, tjhis will remain to be seen however, but if people think we have another JFK in our midst then they are bigger fools thatn what even i take them for.................

The republcan machine is lickingits chops to get a shot at this guy................sorry to rain on your parade..................enjoy your ride..............sadly, Obama has yet to really face the fire..........perhaps he will prevail, maybe all his optimism and hope wil happen................I for one..........donr buy his song and dance however..............there is something missing with this guy..cant quite put a finger on it just yet, but Im certain somewheer donw the road he will be exposed should he be hiding something............................I, and others will be waiting and watching.

We couldn't access salt this week in stores...all sold out.

I've nearly run out--will scoot tomorrow to pick up another 10 lb. bag. We've nearly broken record snowfall amounts (since recorded). It's killing the municipal budgets & oil bills, though.

*Nothing* like the infamous Ice Storm of '98.

http://tinyurl.com/3a6rj2

Outrageously balmy "thaw" weather predicted for NH on Tues (and historic turnout). Not a NorEaster on the short-term horizon.

http://tinyurl.com/2p7xfz

A.B.H., Granite State.

349.

* rdorgan
Sun, 01/06/08

Reply to this


346.

mary vb -

Looks like the sour grapes trio (Linda*in*SFNM, Huron John and audrey.nc), upset at Iowa voters and soon the NH voters, will have a long haul ahead of them, all the way to the general election in Nov !

Go Obama/Edwards '08 !


....and at least it's only 3

_________________________________

So nice to see yourself.

...but don't flatter yourself. And if you can't handle someone else supporting another candidate as I posted I decided to support John Edwards, that's your problem.

I do love the condescending attitude the Obama supporters have. continue sharing.

ANCA WELCOMES JOHN EDWARDS' ENTRY INTO PRESIDENTIAL RACE

Former North Carolina Senator Supported Legislation Recognizing the Armenian Genocide

WASHINGTON, DC – The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) today welcomed the entry of John Edwards, a former Senator from North Carolina who supports U.S. recognition of the Armenian Genocide, into the race for the 2008 Democratic nomination for U.S. President.

"We are always pleased to see friends of the Armenian American community running for the White House," said ANCA Executive Director Aram Hamparian. "In the coming months, as the field of candidates takes shape - in both the Democratic and Republican parties, we look forward to learning more about each presidential aspirant's positions on the full range of Armenian American issues."

During his tenure in the Senate, Edwards supported issues of special concern to Armenian Americans, including official U.S. recognition of the Armenian Genocide. In 2002, Senator Edwards cosponsored S.Res.307, which marked the 15th anniversary of the U.S. implementation of the U.N. Genocide Convention. The following year, he was an original cosponsor of the Armenian Genocide Resolution, S.Res.164.

During his run for the 2004 Democratic Presidential nomination, Sen. Edwards spoke with ANCA leaders about the importance of impressing upon Armenia's neighbors that "We [America] stand fully behind Armenia." In public remarks during the campaign, he stressed that America’s interest are served by recognizing the Armenian Genocide, noting that, "it is the just thing to do; it is about time we [Americans] recognized it."

Photo and full release: http://anca.org/press_releases/press_rel...

I don't want to be seen as a horrible Obama basher but the two main issues are the Iraq War and health care. The reasons are having been in wasted war, I don't want to see more people die for a lie.
JE gets the troops out in 2009 at the latest and BO and HC do not commit before 2013. I also don't want my grand kids to end up figthing this war.

http://www.alternet.org/election08/72344...

On health care, JE covers everyone period. The insurance comoanies will eventiually go away. BOs plan may not cover everyone and both BO and HC keep the insurance industry involved.

sorry for the bad spelling...am multi tasking again.

i'm watching the replay of last night's debates on cnn. had to go to a rehearsal and missed the live showing.

some observations:

politics is about real life, not some hypothetical

the fight to redefine the democratic party as a truly progressive political engine will certainly create animosity, so, is it worth it

there is no anybody but obama

obama/edwards is not unlike when the repugs use the democrat party meme

17. i've always wondered if using all that salt in the winter has any effect on your environment, yard, lawn, etc...

Extreme Makeover "reality" show on ABC is profiling an outrageously swanky home they built in Milbridge in early fall.

Can't afford the property taxes--a few strings had to be pulled for them, as additional "gift" taxes have to be paid when said programs "donate" to families.

If I recall, it freakin' rained most of the two weeks they were here.

Oops.

Guys who fish for lobster in Washington County (poorest county in Maine) *never* wear brandy new orange slicker gear onboard.

Hope they were paid some decent bucks to portray that "image" on the boat!

It's hokey thus far, during the intro (the "haunted" superstition crap is also nauseous).

salt is hell on cars but I feed it to my cattle everyday and the ocean is full of it so it doesn't seem particularly harmful

There are many deicers that are lawn and otherwise environmentally friendly. Never seemed to harm our garden or lawn when I was growing up, and that was before the new stuff that is now on the market.

nice that mprov is thinking about the environment

363. John Edwards speaking about fighting FOR the American people

Talk is cheap. When Edwards had the chance to deliver, he didn't.

_________________________

If you're interested to see some examples of those things he did do when he had the chance, here you go.


SPRADLING: Can you give New Hampshire voters a guide of something significant that you accomplished in your six years as a U.S. senator...

EDWARDS: Absolutely.

SPRADLING: ... that would give us some guide as to what kind of president you're going to be?

EDWARDS: Absolutely. I could tell you exactly one -- I'll give you one very specific example, a big example.

When the Democrats finally took over the United States Senate, the first issue that was brought to the table was the so-called patient's bill of rights, so that patients and families could make their own health care decisions.

EDWARDS: What's happening now is insurance companies are running all over people. I mean, the case of Nataline Sarkisyan, which a lot of the audience will be familiar with -- 17-year-old girl who lost her life a couple of weeks ago because her insurance company would not pay for a liver transplant operation.

She had health insurance, but the insurance company wouldn't pay for it. They finally caved in a few hours before she died.

We need a president who will take these people on. What we did -- and I didn't do it alone, don't claim to have done it alone -- but I, Senator McCain, who was here earlier, Senator Kennedy, the three of us wrote the Patient's Bill of Rights. The three of us took on the powerful insurance industry and their lobby, every single day of the fight for the Patient's Bill of Rights. And we got that bill through the United States Senate and got it passed.

...unfortuntately, W vetoed the Bill, and probably the main reason that poor young girl didn't have to die if it passed.

I'm curious if the southern populism of Edwards can resonate with the western libertarian brand, and the upper midwestern prairie populism so I'm hopping Edwards stays within striking distance at least through Wisconsin so we can test the strength of the Democratic version before Huckabee's brand becomes the alternative choice for populists.

Here it is in western Michigan (east of Grand Rapids; we moved off the big lake) in the middle of winter and I BBQd shrimp and burgers tonight in my shirt sleeves. All snow is nearly gone with thunderstorms and highs near 60 for tomorrow and Tuesday.
Snow again Wednesday.

Yes, salt isn't good. It breaks down the road, having to do unnecessary repairs, plus the rust on cars. But now they are using a chemical that is even worse and still it doesn't work under freezing what's the point you might say-money for the chemical companies-of course. But, if you're in a very snowy area, I don't think you can use anything better than salt, I dunno, because here, we just use crushed lava rock for traction, but it won't melt the snow.

28,
How is this Edwards fault?

Well said, mprov.

Annilow's link re. Obama's Iowa DreamTeam was interesting.

snippets:

Obama rode to victory on a tide of emotion, charisma and desire for change. But mark this: these kids—and most of them are kids—beat the older crowd of traditional operatives at their own game and did it with tech and Internet savvy, brains, fund-raising skills, connections, street smarts and old-fashioned shoe-leather dedication.

  while they were in Iowa they figured out how the game worked to an astonishing degree. Their methods were a mix of innovation and tradition. They took their cell phones and turned texting into an organizing tool (a technique that was used in Iraq, of all places, two years ago). They drew up precinct-walking maps with more color-coding and record-keeping than any I had ever seen (and I've seen many over the years.) They did more training of precinct captains for the caucuses than any other campaign—and, after they trained them, they trained them again.

And on caucus night, they outsmarted the old hands in garnering the second-alignment votes. In the few places where there were pockets of support for low-ranking candidates, the Obama people generally scooped them up to add to their man's total.

 --Howard Fineman in Newsweek

In Kent county, the economy is so bad the roads do not get plowed or salted for days. 4WD or AWD is mandatory. The country ran out of money last year and is running out this year. Road crews were layed off because of budget issues.

It's that, or break my freakin' neck on the steps, Mark.

I'm talkin' pure ICE.

...or someone else's safety (mail carrier).

52" inches have fallen in my area since Dec.

USPS can refuse to deliver mail if the surrounding steps/entryways aren't safe.

Fortunately, I only have about seven steps (plus the top landing) to take care of (and keeping dagger-like icicles knocked down--those can puncture).

The driveway/parking lot isn't sanded or salted...I walk *very* carefully to my car & back.

and a cautionary note about comparing Barack Obama to JFK, soaring rhetoric vs. actual accomplishments, etc:

It bears mentioning that JFK's signature accomplishment was probably resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis without blowing the world to kingdom come, but certainly it is true that Kennedy's achievements as President were threadbare. 

The fact that so many Dems of a certain age "idolize" Kennedy is because he was an extraordinarily inspiring figure. His speeches preached sacrifice, patriotism and yes, change. Take a look at this passage from his speech accepting the Democratic nomination for President:

The New Frontier of which I speak is not a set of promises, it is a set of challenges. It sums up not what I intend to offer the American people, but what I intend to ask of them. It appeals to their pride, not to their pocketbook – it holds out the promise of more sacrifice instead of more security.

....

But I believe the times demand new invention, innovation, imagination, decision. I am asking each of you to be pioneers on that New Frontier. My call is to the young in heart, regardless of age – to all who respond to the Scriptural call: “Be strong and of good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed.”

For courage – not complacency – is our need today – leadership, not salesmanship. And the only valid test of leadership is the ability to lead, and lead vigorously. A tired nation, said David Lloyd George, is a Tory nation, and the United States today cannot afford to be either tired or Tory.

This is stirring and courageous language and for millions of Americans, it changed the way they think about politics. This is to not even mention the soaring rhetoric of his inaugural address. Maybe as a younger generation that grew up after Vietnam and Watergate and in the midst of discussions about stained blue dresses we have become cynical about the power of political rhetoric to inspire people . .  and bring real change. But I think for a lot of folks who came of age in the 60s and who saw or heard Kennedy speak, these words and, more important, his youthful and vigorous image stuck with them.  For better or worse the guy embodied political and generational change and I hardly find it surprising that so many Americans who came of age in the 60s were inspired by Kennedy -- even if he didn't accomplish much.

After all, us wonks who look exclusively at policy accomplishments are in the minority. For millions of Americans, political image is just as salient if not more. As Obama suggested last night in the Democratic debate words can make a difference; they can inspire people. Never underestimate the power of the bully pulpit!

 --Michael Cohen at Democracy Arsenal

For the roof and back porch, potassium chloride and calcium work well and do not kill plants. I use standard salt on the driveway and sidewalk because it is cheaper and I see very little flower and grass damage from rock salt.

try these tips.
http://frentzandsons.com/content/howto/e...

I'll chime in on the salt question. Many think it more harmful to the environment to use salt instead of sand. Salt is corrosive and does kill some types of vegetation along the immediate roadside (beach roses and poison ivy don't seem to mind it...lol). Some areas have salt use restrictions and sand is used...though the roads aren't nearly as safe. Salt is mainly used to keep the snow/ice from bonding on the road surface...with a small treatment to clear the road after plowing is done. No amount of sand can do this and other chemicals they're trying just don't work imo. Another problem is that sand is just as harmful but in another way. It smothers the insect life in streams as the alluvium created by small water flows covers the gravel areas where the insects live. After high water events, there is a natural settling process where these gravel areas remain. This is why silt fence is used on construction projects...small rain events wash the fine particles into streams, smothering the insect life which in turn affects fish populations. Salt is also heavier than water, so it doesn't easily flow to contaminate water supplies like petroleum products. If we want to drive cars in winter and want safe roads, salt is best.

Mainefem, is there such a thing as "ice shoes"?....something with little spikes to grip the ice?  Just curious....native Californian here.

ok, i guess i'm sufficiently educated on the ice/salt issue. i did actually slip on an icy sidewalk in wakegan in 1975. slammed my left knee into the sidewalk as i stepped off a stair step. limped for a week.

 If we want to drive cars in winter and want safe roads, salt is best.

~~~~~~~~~~

The expert has spoken.

re. the soaring rhetoric .... that's what I meant in a recent post about Obama.  If he can duplicate his Iowa performance across the country and inspire a new generation, well, hard to put a price on that.

cC,

I have YakTrax Traction Devices from Cabelas.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...

As you know, I don't walk real well and these things allow me to walk on solid ice without falling.

JE gets the troops out in 2009 at the latest and BO and HC do not commit before 2013.

Edwards said earlier that he wouldn't committ to getting the troops out by 2013, then he changed his tune -- yet again.

Watch Edwards speak and you'll notice that he really does quite often speak from the side of his mouth. It's just hard to tell which one sometimes. 

349.

* rdorgan
Sun, 01/06/08


Looks like the sour grapes trio (Linda*in*SFNM, Huron John and audrey.nc),


...oh and forgot to mention, because we do want to get facts straight. If this is supposed to mean the people who don't support Obama, there are a WHOLE LOT MORE, so maybe you should start your own thread.

 Obama.  If he can duplicate his Iowa performance across the country and inspire a new generation, well, hard to put a price on that.  
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

chal,

Good God...............if the last 8 years of Bush and a crappy Democratic Congress the last 6 months havent inspired a new generation..............then we are in worse shape than i thought we were in...........................

Blood, Sweat & Tears - God Bless The Child        http://hypem.com/track/459180       http://mog.com/Bartleby/blog_post/135225       Or Billie Holiday @  http://hypem.com/track/428188

dog...salt will eat up anything with cement, steps made of concrete or bricks and mortor...calcium chloride doesn't damage cement but is much more corrosive than salt to metal, clothes, shoe stitchings, etc.
Salt also doesn't work well below 20 degrees, calcium chloride works below zero. We spray liquid calcium on the salt when it's below 20 degrees. The calcium chloride is a catalyst that will then bring are area around the salt crystal up to temp to work.

43,
JE made his position stronger on Iraq. I'll take that as a good sign. If he backtracks then he can be slammed. But not for taking a stronger position.

My reply is on the previous thread. Suffice to say,  I'm not impressed with Edwards' failed PBOR attaempt. The harm he did as a senator far outweighs his meager attempts at good publicity.

JE made his position stronger on Iraq.

He looked at the polls and changed accordingly --again. 

reed, you really know the science of this stuff...doesn't surprise me a bit.

Looks like the sour grapes

It was to be expected that whoever won in Iowa would be attacked by supporters of the losers. 

I only salt the driveway and sidewalks when we expect people over. The blacktop driveway is very long and absords heat from the sun. Very little of any additive is needed once the snow is removed. Our sidewalk is very short and is not used much.
Keeping the driveway clean is part of my exercise program. I rarely use the snow blower and we get over 80 inches of snow per year.
The only part that is bad is at the end of the street by the mailbox. I usually just chip it off.

Sitka,
I don't mind if a stronger position is taken regardless of the reason. I do mind if a position gets weaker.

.if the last 8 years of Bush and a crappy Democratic Congress the last 6 months havent inspired a new generation....

Rotteness is not a source of inspiration. 

I don't mind if a stronger position is taken regardless of the reason.

Positions easily adopted according to necessity are also easily abandoned according to convenience.

Supporting Edwards requires at least one blind eye and repeated leaps of faith.

start your own thread.

>

Just on this narrow point, we can agree that threads exist on their own.  We can choose to follow them or...

trading is HOT on this primary - BIG change from last night:

Intrade Political 'Securities'PercentageUS$ TradedHillary Clinton to be the Democratic Presidential Nominee in 2008 36.5% $3.8M Barack Obama to be Democratic Presidential Nominee in 2008 62.9% $2.6M John Edwards to be the Democratic Presidential Nominee in 2008 1.5% $1.5M Bill Richardson to be the Democratic Presidential Nominee in 2008 0.2% $857K

Obama might be good, Edwards might be good...heck, even Hillary might be good...none will be great, that's for sure...but it's all we've got short of a revolution and that ain't going to happen...the sheep are to busy grazing.

We're at where JFK warned us about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS7l6i4w1...

http://cozywinters.com/ice-cleats/ice-cleats.html?source=go&gclid=COb-gpqB45ACFQIQFQoddxbjXQ       Ice cleats

56,
If JEs position on Iraq gets weaker then I will be first in line to rip him.
Until then I am willing to support him.
I am essentially a two issue voter; health care and the war.
Until someone else has a better plan or articulates a different position I will support Kucinich and Edwards. Assuming Dennis will be toast, then my support moves to Edwards. I have contributed heavily to both of them and for the moment are standing pat.
Once a stronger position is taken, it is very hard to take a weaker position and survive politically; especially as something so explosive as the war.