Paine is first............Happy Birthday...............

Howard Dean is 1st here ... but I do wish Paine ... and all the other BFA birthday persons ... many happy returns!

***********
Repost from last thread ... a DU Gore comment thread.

[...]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...

Mr. Gore's surprise stop at Jay Leno last night.
http://www.nbc.com/The_Tonight_Show_with...

PEACE IS FIRST!!

... not warmongering machoism.

!! GO DENNIS KUCINICH GO !!

Another repost from the last, in case Linda missed it ...

=============
101. Linda: I post a lot of links from DU, but I am not registered there. This is the only blog where I actually post right now.

I posted a bit at the DNC blog when Howard was first elected and posted occasionally at HEP, but this is where my heart is.

Peace is certainly OK, Deaniac ... LOL!

My last for now ... putz, the pseudo-warrior ... really good at sending others off to die for his futile and criminal war ventures.

==================
Bush's Battlefield Envy
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Monday, September 17, 2007; 2:18 PM

President Bush wishes that he could be alongside the troops in Iraq -- except that he's too old.

At least that's what he reportedly told a blogger embedded with U.S. troops in Iraq. In the first session of its kind, Bush spent almost an hour on Friday talking with 10 so-called "milbloggers," including two who participated by video conference from a military base outside Baghdad.

" N.Z. Bear," one of the eight guests sitting around a table with Bush at the White House, reported: "Responding to one of the bloggers in Iraq he expressed envy that they could be there, and said he'd like to be there but 'One, I'm too old to be out there, and two, they would notice me.'"

Maybe Bush was just making idle chit-chat. But this would not be the first time the president has appeared unaware of the hardships his war has caused hundreds of thousands of American troops -- while expressing a misguided sense of bravado.

He certainly hasn't ever put himself in harm's way. The president who avoided serving in Vietnam as a young man has made only three visits to Iraq since declaring that major combat operations were over more than four years ago. All three of the visits were unannounced and featured extensive security.

Bush's total time in country? Less than 15 hours.

[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

98.

JudyforDean
Tue, 09/18/07
9:49 am

No wonder the US RW hates Putin.

Thanks to their own greed and short-sightedness, Russia has once again become a player on the world stage.

=================

Sounds like American people should NOT be satisfied if someone who has "stability and growth" becoming "a player on the world stage", that they should again to be afraid of Russia, and that there should be ONE ONLY player on that stage - USA.

Is that correct understanding of this post's attitude?

Thank you Judy.

Thank you for Sheri!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLhIb7WkE...

I'd really like to participate with DFA radio, but there just isn't time.  I've just agreed to take on seeing that the DFNH site has updated content after I get back from next week in D.C. because the person who's been doing it is overwhelmed.

We need more recruits.  I still haven't written up our Carol fest on Sunday because putting stuff up on the web takes longer than the event itself.

Oh well. 

7.  I take it as a statement of fact.  The "wrong" wing has managed to achieve, once more, what they claimed to want to avoid and taught Americans to fear.  Which tells me, once again, that their antagonism towards the Soviets and China was driven by envy while their targets took the legitimate critiques to heart and transformed themselves by becoming less repressive.

A "demand economy" is an illusion.  It's not possible for people to demand that which they do not know.

A "command economy" is unworkable because it's not possible for the commanders to anticipate needs.  

The best economy is one in which there's a constant feed-back between need, satisfaction and innovation.  Unfortunately, that's not a process that economists (people who give advice on how the economy is supposed to work) have been able to model.  Their models are all static (snapshots of a point in time) and and can't seem to incorporate change over time. 

Monica wrote "[Gore] didn't have standing [in the Florida vote count legal challenge] in that he hadn't been deprived of anything. The votes and the tally do not belong to the candidate."

Which makes you stop and wonder how Bush v. Palm Beach County, Gore v. Harris, and Bush v. Gore were ever heard, since standing is a threshold issue and the Supreme Court, in particular, has never seemed very shy about denying cert on that basis.

Cool. Just heard, should I try and go to a Concert this weekend? Kevin Costner's been in town filming a new movie, "Swing Vote" and his RockaBilly Band is playing at the Rodeo just up the street from me this weekend for film in the movie. hmmmmm.

13. Tom, you're falsyfyaing comments.

Re Monica wrote ...and you ADDED Gore, Monica did not and she was referring to KERRY, not Gore.

ts ts ts ts

About the vote... http://one.revver.com/watch/388003/flv

82.

linda b
Tue, 09/18/07
9:14 am

Reply to this


Monica, I find it offensive that Kerry had over 26 million in his account after the election. He had the money and standing to go after a recount.

He said he would before if there was a problem. that is why people see him as a wuss.

95.

Monica Smith
Tue, 09/18/07
9:38 am

Reply to this


82. No, linda, he didn't have standing in that he hadn't been deprived of anything. The votes and the tally do not belong to the candidate. A candidate, in some states, can ask for a recount, but a recount is just that--a repetition of the same process, using the same criteria that were used the first time (that's what happened in Florida; the votes that were thrown out initially, were thrown out again).

Linda wrote " Tom, you're falsyfyaing comments."

How imprecise of me. Monica wrote "Being upset at the candidates for not getting the votes counted is useless because it's not the candidate's responsibility and the candidates have no standing to demand something that isn't theirs.  The votes belong to the voters and then, at best in the presidential election, to the candidates selected to participate in the electoral college."

Which makes you stop and wonder how Bush v. Palm Beach County, Gore v. Harris, and Bush v. Gore were ever heard, since standing is a threshold issue and the Supreme Court, in particular, has never seemed very shy about denying cert on that basis.

13.  The thing to keep in mind is that courts generally only consider issues that are brought before them in the arguments of the two sides (sometimes supported by arguments by "friends").  If the argument isn't brought up, it isn't considered.  I think one of the reasons the Supremes made the point that Bush v. Gore was not setting a precedent was because it was a sketchy case and didn't cover all possible contingencies. 

The Gore legal team was caught flat-footed.  The country has been caught flat-footed by the lawyers who have made torture seem legal and tried to redefine rights as only applying to citizens when the Constitution clearly specifies "persons."

Judges are basically in a position of deciding which side makes the "better" argument.  There are some issues that haven't been addressed in the law and which are, therefor, beyond judicial consideration.  But that, too, has to be brought up in argument and judges aren't too keen to learn that they have no role at all; more likely to go with a half-baked argument. 

im·pre·cise [
–adjective not precise; not exact; vague or ill-defined.


Really, is that what it was Tom, or did you totally icorrectly put someone elses name in to the conversation.

Monica wrote "The thing to keep in mind is that courts generally only consider issues that are brought before them in the arguments of the two sides (sometimes supported by arguments by "friends").  If the argument isn't brought up, it isn't considered."

This is absolutely true but at least in the case of the Supreme Court, granting cert is no everyday event.  Threshold issues like standing are among the most readily available tools for getting rid of an appeal there's no need to hear, i.e., reducing the bench's work load.  There was obviously something else operating, but you're correct that the parties did not address standing in the briefs filed in Bush v. Gore.

Linda wrote "Really, is that what it was Tom, or did you totally icorrectly put someone elses name in to the conversation."

Not that it's not terribly interesting, but why exactly are we discussing this?

In court, it's never just one thing or the other.

For example, on the military commissions, the SC ruled that they hadn't been properly set up.  So, the Administration got congress to pass a law setting them up.  But, when they actually try to use this process, they'll discover that it can't be applied to people who were captured BEFORE this process was set up.  'Cause that would be ex-post-facto and that violates the Constitution, which may not be significant, if foreigners have no rights under our Constitution.  But they do (another ruling), so it is.

So, they're building new courtrooms on Guantanamo that they'll probably never get to use.  But, it's something!!!! Right????? 

Two Courageous Women Stand Up in Congress for Voter's Rights

By Leanne Libert, Publications Coordinator

January 7, 2005

The cold morning air grayed the skies but did not dampen the spirits of hundreds of activists who gathered in front of the White House Jan. 6 to demand an accurate count of every vote cast Nov. 2, 2004.

People even traveled from Ohio to participate in the demonstration. Orange ribbons and bandanas were distributed for wear in honor of Ukrainians who rallied for days on end to ensure a fair democratic election.

NOW President Kim Gandy excited the crowd with news that Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., would join with Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D-Ohio, to object to the counting of Ohio's 20 electoral votes on the basis of voting irregularities and disenfranchisement - only the second such challenge since the current rules for counting electoral votes were established in 1877.

"We won't see a replay of the 2000 election when representative after representative pleaded for even one senator to stand up with them, but no senator answered their call," Gandy said. "This year Barbara Boxer will be that one senator." ...full article: http://www.now.org/issues/election/elect...

We are discussing this because a young man got arrested and tasered for confronting Kerry about his wussy attitude to the election in 2004 and I was trying to explain that there wasn't actually much he could do at the time, as a candidate.  Though that doesn't account for why he hasn't done anything much since, and that's what I'd hold against him.

Monica wrote "We are discussing this because a young man got arrested and tasered for confronting Kerry about his wussy attitude to the election in 2004 and I was trying to explain that there wasn't actually much he could do at the time, as a candidate."

Sorry to be so obtuse.  I meant why are we discussing my reference to Gore in your post about Kerry's standing after you had discussed the standing of candidates like Kerry and Gore to legally challenge election results?

On eavesdropping,  here is the advice given to the Democrats by the DLC...

"..."Democrats should take the position that they are happy to give the administration all the legal authority it wants and needs in exchange for accepting responsibility for actual results."

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1508

What a joke. They said give a failed administration more power.

Just to get it on the record, this incident at the U of F just heaps one more example of how ineffective Kerry has proven to be at nearly anything he attempts since his ill-fated decision to run for president.  It's become painful to watch.  It's he who should just step away from the microphone.

30.  It's my guess that he's hamstrung by a lot of guilt.  Can't imagine what he was doing at UF. 

Thank  you Senator Barbara Boxer!

tom, you apparently felt it worthy of discussing when you incorrectly referenced comments Monica made about and you adding Gore's name where it didn't belong. I'm sure if it were your name being incorrectly referred to, you would want it corrected.

I guess you just didn't want to admit you were wrong and that's why this is going on and on.

Linda wrote "you incorrectly referenced comments Monica made about and you adding Gore's name where it didn't belong."

But she did mention Gore.  Go look.  I mean, why am I even telling you this?  You responded to linda b's comment yourself, and you can see above that Monica is cognizent of this.  Is anyone else here misunderstanding this?

Being that Tom wanted to incorrectly bring over a conversation from the other thread, in the interest of being clear, lets just repost the conversation as it WAS and now it can be dropped.
71.
linda b
Tue, 09/18/07
8:54 am


Linda in NM, there are videos out there but I can't seem to load them. The guy was actually supporting Kerry and the cops went too far.

People are getting really pissed now. You will see more of it. I am mad and Kerry and Gore for not going further in getting the votes in Ohio and Florida counted.
_________________
76.
Linda*in*SFNM
Tue, 09/18/07
9:03 am

Howdy linda b.

I haven't had time to read yet the account of the young man, but I heard they were reporting the same thoughts, that the man was only speaking loud, not anything else and the police are being investigated for their actions.

Now as far as the elections in 2000 and 2004, I don't think there's much similarities of the 2 and the candidates responses.

Kerry swore to count the vote after being around for the 2000 election and the known problems with voting machines, but then conceded the very next morning and didn't get involved on demanding rcounts until the people started the effort on their own and then getting Green candidate to support the effort.

Al Gore, I understand people being bitter for him not getting in office, but hardly can it be said he didn't try and try very hard. He even addressed it on his Assault on Reason book tour where he said "he did everything short of a Revolution". He abided by "our law". He fought for a month, he had his people down there, contesting and making sure ALL the votes get counted. It was when Florida demanded the recount, again, and the Bush folks brought it to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court halted the recount, 1 month later.

And especially considering not one fellow Senator joined the contest with Congress on the floor, I'd say Mr. Gore, especially on at the time un precedented results of voting, did a good job and tried very hard to have every vote counted.
_________________
81.
Monica Smith
Tue, 09/18/07
9:08 am

71. Being upset at the candidates for not getting the votes counted is useless because it's not the candidate's responsibility and the candidates have no standing to demand something that isn't theirs. The votes belong to the voters and then, at best in the presidential election, to the candidates selected to participate in the electoral college.

There should be a provision in the law for a timely challenge by the voters in an election as a class. That the mechanics of the elections has not been properly addressed is a problem you can lay at the feet of all the legislators who have jurisdiction over such matters. The effort to over-ride the fact that the electoral process is a state matter by mandating uniform equipment that would guarantee accuracy was ill-conceived--well intentioned, but ill-conceived because the potential for fraud and malfunction was overlooked.
____________________
82.
linda b
Tue, 09/18/07
9:14 am

Monica, I find it offensive that Kerry had over 26 million in his account after the election. He had the money and standing to go after a recount.

He said he would before if there was a problem. that is why people see him as a wuss.
___________________
95.
Monica Smith
Tue, 09/18/07
9:38 am

82. No, linda, he didn't have standing in that he hadn't been deprived of anything. The votes and the tally do not belong to the candidate. A candidate, in some states, can ask for a recount, but a recount is just that--a repetition of the same process, using the same criteria that were used the first time (that's what happened in Florida; the votes that were thrown out initially, were thrown out again). What's required is an audit of the tally, which is, of course, impossible when we're dealing with electrons that leave no permanent record. NH has mandated paper ballots and a manual audit, if there's a question. In fact, there are regular manual recounts and the results are sometimes different enough to change the outcome. Some NH counties use opti-scan equipment from Diebold and there's lots of awareness that the program could be jiggled, but no hard evidence yet.

somebody's done a study to show that most precincts are actually small enough that the votes should be able to be tallied by hand in a couple of hours. It just takes people who need to be trained and organized for an event that, at most, happens a couple of times a year. It's a lot of work and, unless election officials are forced to do it, they prefer machines.

----------->>> There Tom, now all corrected and you can move on.

Linda wrote "There Tom, now all corrected and you can move on."

Ack!  I will.  No mas. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7000059.stm

The opposition won 53% of votes

It was clear early on that this was unlike many elections in Africa.

Before even a single ballot in the presidential poll had been cast, the governing party was complaining of rigging.

On election day itself the ruling Sierra Leone People's Party (SLPP) accused the police of bias.

A party in power being cheated? It was an unusual claim.

The familiar scenario in so many elections across Africa is of a very uneven playing field, with the pitch sloping in favour of the governing party.

But in Sierra Leone, Ernest Bai Koroma of the opposition All People's Congress (APC) has won with 53% of the total votes compared to 44% for the outgoing Vice President, Solomon Berewa.

Helping hand

Mr Koroma was given a huge helping hand when former minister Charles Margai broke away from the governing party and later called for his supporters to back the APC candidate in the run-off vote.

...

"You cannot fatten your pig on market day," said Mr Koroma.

There is no longer a place for fraud and malpractice in the Sierra Leone electoral system
Christiana Thorpe
National Electoral Commission

It will be a tough defeat to take for the SLPP and even as it stared them in the face, party officials were in a serious state of denial.

The electorate has sent a clear message to the country's politicians - the majority of voters felt the government was not doing enough to eradicate poverty in this mineral rich country.

There was also a widespread perception that the outgoing government was corrupt.

The newly-created National Electoral Commission (NEC) has done a good job at trying to keep the playing field level thanks largely to its boss - the former nun and headteacher, Christiana Thorpe.

Sierra Leoneans have witnessed a well-organised poll and the fair but firm Ms Thorpe dealt with election malpractice the same way she might have reacted to finding one of her former students cheating in exams.

...

A thought to ponder--have you noticed the remblance of Fred Simpson to Homer Simpson?

John wrote "A thought to ponder--have you noticed the remblance of Fred Simpson to Homer Simpson?"

Who's Fred Simpson?

Barbara Boxer: Rice Hearings and the 2004 Vote

NPR Fresh Air from WHYY, February 10, 2005 · Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) recently made headlines with her tough questioning of Condoleezza Rice during her confirmation hearings for Secretary of State. Boxer was also the only senator to object to the certification of Ohio's electoral votes, bringing about a two-hour debate on the matter.

Boxer became a senator in January 1993, after 10 years representing the area around California's Marin County in the House.

Audio of the show: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...

39. silly me--I meant Fred Thompson!

John wrote "silly me--I meant Fred Thompson!"

Thanks for correcting that because I'm sure if it were your name being incorrectly referred to, you would want it corrected.

No, I've never noticed that Fred Thompson looks like Homer Simpson. 

32.

yikes Susan, you risk opening an old domestic wound because I sent Boxer flowers and shorted my wife on our Anniversary, lol

Gore/Boxer

12.

Monica Smith
Tue, 09/18/07
10:57 am

...........
A "demand economy" is an illusion. It's not possible for people to demand that which they do not know.

A "command economy" is unworkable because it's not possible for the commanders to anticipate needs.

The best economy is one in which there's a constant feed-back between need, satisfaction and innovation. Unfortunately, that's not a process that economists (people who give advice on how the economy is supposed to work) have been able to model. Their models are all static (snapshots of a point in time) and and can't seem to incorporate change over time.
------------

Before going into "constant feed-back between need, satisfaction and innovation" my question would be WHO WILL DEFINE what all those terms mean? (e.g. for Microsoft "new" operating system every 5 years is an "innovation" while for others it is NOT).

What about "needs economy"?
The one, where those "needs" are DEFINED by People WHO OWN IT based on WHAT IS POSSIBLE at any given time?

Are People going to "have power" in such an economy?

43.

Phil Specht


Why don't bring your sweetheart home some flowers tonight.

She'll love it!

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THE ECONOMY'S GOOD

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney09182007.html

Consider this: In 2000, when Bush took office, gold was $273 per ounce, oil was $22 per barrel and the euro was worth $.87 per dollar. Currently, gold is over $700 per ounce, oil is over $80 per barrel, and the euro is nearly $1.40 per dollar. If Bernanke cuts rates, we’re likely to see oil at $125 per barrel by next spring.

Inflation is soaring. The government statistics are thoroughly bogus. Gold, oil and the euro don’t lie. According to economist Martin Feldstein, “The falling dollar and rising food prices caused market-based consumer prices to rise by 4.6 per cent in the most recent quarter.” (WSJ)

That’s 18.4 per cent a year, and yet Bernanke is still considering cutting interest rates and further fueling inflation.

MORE FROM MIKE WHITNEY

same link as 46.

Bernanke should not even be contemplating a rate cut. The market needs more discipline not less. And workers need a stable dollar. Besides, another rate cut would further jeopardize the greenback’s increasingly shaky position as the world’s “reserve currency”. That could destabilize the global economy by rapidly unwinding the U.S. massive current account deficit. 

The International Herald Tribune summed up the dollar’s problems in a recent article, "Dollar's Retreat Raises Fear of Collapse."

"Finance ministers and central bankers have long fretted that at some point, the rest of the world would lose its willingness to finance the United States' proclivity to consume far more than it produces - and that a potentially disastrous free-fall in the dollar's value would result.

STILL MORE FROM MIKE WHITNEY

Bernanke can either be a statesman---and tell the country the truth about our dysfunctional financial system which is breaking down from years of corruption, deregulation and manipulation---or he can take the cowards-route and buy some time by flooding the system with liquidity, stimulating more destructive consumerism, and condemning the nation to an avoidable cycle of double-digit inflation.
 
We’ll know his decision soon enough.

OH! I just got an email....it's not just Kevin Costner, it's Kelsey Gramar.............AND............DENNIS HOPPER! DENNIS HOPPER....OH, I HAVE to go.



Maybe Val Kilmer will join in on the fun....OH And Jane Fonda.

par TY! :)

Fun starts Friday at 5PM

Susan Rowe
Tue, 09/18/07
12:29 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have no choice if she happens to scroll through this thread.

I confess to understanding Crushies through my feelings toward Boxer.

I pass through the flower shop at the grocery on the way to the coffee beans and I'll keep it spontaneous or my better half will suspect there is another woman. lol

Boxer is just a very good Senator. Honest.

Gore/Boxer 

thanks for bringing a smile to my lunch break Susan

45.

s/b you bring

oops, misspelled Kelsy Grammer's name, not Gramar...sorry sir.

50.

Phil Specht


;)